by Ondrej Mann
I know you are the founder of the NSBM genre, what did the term NSBM mean to you then and now?
I wouldn’t call myself the founding father of NSBM because that implies that NSBM is a new phenomenon in Black Metal. However, this is a false assumption, as the genre of Black Metal has always dealt with historical, cultural, and esoteric references to fascism and National Socialism from the very beginning. For example, Bathory’s “Under the Runes” can very well be read as a portrayal of World War II from the perspective of the Germans and their Nordic volunteer units, which also aligns with anecdotes about Quorthon from that time. The Norwegian Black Metal bands from 1992 also used the swastika or the SS Totenkopf, made racist and anti-Semitic statements in interviews, and generally believed that Black Metal was only for whites. The reaction of the international metal scene to Black Metal at that time was a general boycott of bands and their releases, which was justified by the “fascist mindset” of Black Metal musicians. NSBM – or “National Socialist Black Metal” – simply articulated in 1999 what had been present in Black Metal all along. However, and I want to emphasize this, not as a political manifesto! The term “NSBM” was first used on the compilation “The Night and The Fog: A Tribute to National Socialist Black Metal”. However, this compilation also included bands that did not address any NS themes in their songs at that time. The common idea was different: Beginning in 1996, the mentioned boycott of Black Metal was slowly but surely lifted, and the music industry recognized the sales potential of Black Metal bands. Dimmu Borgir, who still wanted to “slit the throat of every colored person” in 1994, got a record deal with Nuclear Blast. More and more Black Metal bands from the early days became commercially successful and distanced themselves from the radicality of their earlier statements. So we realized that Black Metal would soon be successfully domesticated and castrated if we did not draw a red line within the scene. This red line was and is “NSBM”. The principle then and now is that it is impossible in the West to commercialize positive references to National Socialism. Of course, the Third Reich is trivialized and marketed in the form of alleged “education,” but this always happens under the premise of “Never again!”. However, if an artist today were to speak about the good sides of Adolf Hitler, their career would be over. So we were aware that the best way to immunize Black Metal against its appropriation by the music industry was to positively reference National Socialism within this genre – even if it was just by participating in a compilation like “The Night and The Fog”. Shortly after its release, I wrote and published an essay, “National Socialist Black Metal,” in which I described “NSBM” as the inevitable culmination point in the development history of Black Metal. I am still convinced of this.
Isn’t the term NSBM obsolete today? Bands like Kroda, Nokturnal Mortum, Temnozor cannot be put in the same box as Der Stürmer, M8l8th, Adolf Kvlt. These bands play more ethnic pagan black metal and don’t deal with NS even though they also play in the deep underground, like orthodox NS bands.
The term “NSBM” is probably outdated for another reason. As I already mentioned, the idea that right-wing extremists suddenly thought of infiltrating and appropriating Black Metal is complete nonsense. Black Metal was proto-fascist from the very beginning, definitely reactionary and extremist. Practically all bands that later openly identified with “NSBM” were already founded as Black Metal bands and at that time also dealt with satanic and occult themes. So, “NSBM” has always been flesh of its own flesh, so to speak. In 1999, there was also no idea that “NSBM” had to explicitly be about Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich. Such a thing only crystallized over time with some bands, and yet, in my opinion, it would be wrong to consider only these bands as “NSBM.” For several years now, there have been two tendencies in Black Metal, one of which has been brought into the scene from outside. This involves the leftist “guilt by association” thesis, according to which one is already a “Nazi” if one sits at the same table with another “Nazi.” In a sense, as a defense against this thesis, many Black Metal bands argue that this cannot be true because the representatives of “NSBM” – in their opinion, those bands that exclusively and offensively deal with the Third Reich and World War II in their music and lyrics – are only a small minority that one can simply avoid. Both tendencies obscure the overall picture, namely the original and still dominant character of Black Metal as an artistic expression of a counter-reality in which the pagan gods are alive and powerful, in which the Christianization of Europe never happened, and in which the Third Reich did not lose the war. Therefore, I am quite of the opinion that it must be acknowledged that Black Metal = “NSBM” and that any discussion about alleged infiltration and distinction is therefore superfluous.
How is black metal different from metal in general – death, grind, heavy metal?
Musically, there are certainly more similarities than differences between the various styles and subgenres in metal, even considering the fact that by 1992 there were clearly audible differences between Scandinavian, Polish, and Greek Black Metal bands. However, Black Metal never wanted to be just another subtype of Heavy Metal. On the contrary, in 1992, all bridges between the scenes were truly burned. There were even death threats from the Black Metal scene against Death Metal bands to make them cancel their concerts in Norway. At that time, there was an accusation from Black Metal against the very first scene representatives – Venom, for example – from the 1980s, and of course also against the Death Metal bands from that era, that they never meant it seriously. They only sang about death and the devil but did not practice any of it. This was now to be changed, and it was changed – the numerous church arsons, but also violent crimes up to murder, committed from within the Black Metal scene between 1992 and 1995, are impressive testimony to a “from words to deeds” philosophy of the bands and fans active at that time. The metal scene took very close note of this and reacted with disgust and rejection. At that time, it was absolutely possible to come to Black Metal without being interested in or enthusiastic about metal as such. That was the case with me, for example. Black Metal was extreme music for extreme people; a scene in which the line between reality and fiction blurs and can be crossed, and that is, of course, the crucial difference not only between Black Metal and metal as such but also between Black Metal and many other subcultures in the West.
Is there an ideal type in black metal?
For me personally, it’s simple: I place great importance on the synthesis of lyrics and music, as two sides of the same coin. If there are quality deficiencies on one side or the other, it diminishes the overall impression and I am not convinced. Of course, 30 years ago we didn’t hold ourselves to the same standards, which can be heard on our early recordings, but by now it should be a consensus in the scene that a band or solo project should only release something when they have mastered their instruments flawlessly and are also capable of expressing their thoughts in a lyrically sophisticated manner. A popular yet fundamentally false accusation against “NSBM” is that it is claimed to be inferior music, which is then “spiced up” with a swastika. In individual cases, this may be true, but overall, “NSBM” bands play at the same level as other Black Metal bands. A project like Wolfnacht, for example, is even much better than many other things released in contemporary Black Metal because Athalwolf is a perfectionist and places great importance on a flawless presentation in words, images, and sound.
Does Richard Wagner and classical music mean anything to you? Richard Wagner created the Germanic myth, is black metal trying to do something similar in its ideal form?
We probably wouldn’t be having this interview if I had no interest in Richard Wagner at all. For Richard Wagner is indeed the great conjurer of Germanic archetypes in the world of art. One could say he is the one who brought them to life – in a form that makes them appear before us in reality. What the German Romantics expressed individually in paintings, poems, and songs, Wagner combined in words, images, and music, and brought to the stage. It was only through this synthesis that it became a transcendental event, a sort of divine service, and someone like Adolf Hitler recognized himself in this living world of myths and wanted to transfer it from the realm of art into reality. This is precisely the approach taken in Black Metal: confronting this world with art as a tool and weapon to destroy and recreate it. A venture doomed to failure? Perhaps, yes. But if there is something in this world that endures death – not only the death of the individual, but also that of collectives, cultures, civilizations – and even triumphs over it, it is myth. The myth remains. If Germany ceases to exist one day, Wagner will still be there. His works might not hold the same significance in other cultures as they do for us, but instinctively, everywhere people still uphold tradition and culture, it is recognized that this is a universal and timeless work of art and cultural heritage. The myth, crystallized in music, song, stage design, and costumes. Black Metal will probably never hold this level of significance, but it is still right to hold oneself and one’s art to this standard.
How do you rate the book Lords of Chaos today? You wrote a commentary on the book the year it was published. Michael Moynihan here, unlike other left-wing authors, claims that there has been a revival of the Wotan archetype in Norway through black metal. And that’s what fueled the transgressions, the murders, the church burnings. How do you feel about that?
“Lords of Chaos” is probably the first serious attempt at a comprehensive description of Black Metal by an interested outsider, and Michael Moynihan has advocated a thesis that I also share. However, it was likely Gerhard “Kadmon” Petak who first introduced this thesis in connection with Black Metal: How the bourgeois children of a wealthy and largely secularized society, such as those found in Norway in the 1980s and 1990s, could suddenly become religious fanatics with a penchant for violence and a desire for apocalypse, cannot, in my opinion, be explained solely (or at all) by social and similar reasons. C.G. Jung’s theory of archetypes, particularly his “Wotan” essay on the rise of National Socialism in Germany, can provide a much more meaningful answer here. Unfortunately, the publisher of “Lords of Chaos” insisted that this book fit into its “True Crime” publications, and therefore too much emphasis is placed on various murders from within the Black Metal scene, even attempting to treat cases that have nothing to do with Black Metal in the same context. This sensationalism has harmed the book’s purpose, in my opinion. This is also evident in the fact that the rights were sold to Hollywood, resulting in a ridiculous „coming of age“-film being made.
Have you noticed the so-called re-polarisation of the world, what was drive sacred is now profane and what was transgression is now the new normal? For example, nationalism, family, faith x child castration, pedophilia, sex change, interracial mixing?
Our world has always been divided along fundamental differences, so it is no wonder that we are again observing an increasing polarization within society today. Certainly, there have always been phases of dialogue and compromise in between, but the binary “friend/foe” scheme is as old as humanity and will therefore continue to determine human interactions. Homo homini lupus! However, what you are addressing is a conscious and deliberate reversal of all previously valid values. Certainly, there have been epochs in human history where, for example, different sexual morals prevailed, but certain principles, especially those biologically determined like the fact of two genders, were never up for debate. This is supposed to change now. It’s not just about implementing a transhumanist agenda; no, it’s about establishing a pseudo-reality where 2+2 = 5. We already live in a reality that is not in harmony with the natural order, but we will soon have to live in a reality that is in direct contradiction to the natural order. The idea behind this is to question empirical reality, just as O’Brien says to Winston Smith when interrogating and torturing him in the “Ministry of Love.” No one should know or be able to say what is real and what is not. No one, except for the higher authority of an unquestionable entity, determines the truth. But even this truth is arbitrary and can change at any time. Even unconditional submission and blind obedience do not protect against thought crimes because what one believed yesterday may be false today. This way, independent thinking is trained out of people, conditioning them into a will-less subject of totalitarian rule; not as in the past, by forcing them to follow a certain ideology, but now by taking away every ideology and with it every certainty. The new totalitarianism is not characterized by a particular worldview; no, it is the denial of the assumption that the world can indeed be recognized, understood, explained as it is. This is evident, for example, in the „doublethink“-alike contradiction that on the one hand, a relentless identity politics is pursued that knows and allows no nuances and gray areas, but on the other hand, it is emphasized that there is no identity at all because it is only a social construct. Therefore, one can choose their own identity, even though it is not real, and be someone they are not. In such a world, it will be possible to manipulate people as brainless masses at will. That is precisely what it is all about.
Is it possible to organize a NSBM concert in Germany?
In the past, this was indeed feasible; for example, there have been concerts by Der Stürmer and Goatmoon in Germany. However, nowadays, such an undertaking is hopeless. It is often no longer even possible to organize song evenings for a handful of guests because the police intervene to prevent such events. Adding to the difficulty is the fact that it has also been made impossible for German bands to perform abroad. They receive a travel ban from the German authorities shortly before their performance. This is reminiscent of the conditions in East Germany before 1990, although at some point, unwelcome artists were expatriated. They could no longer perform in the GDR but could still perform abroad. This possibility no longer exists today because the German state wants to subject such artists to a general performance ban.
Is there a dark soul of Germanicism? The Germans created and are very fond of Faust, Struwwelpeter, The Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm?
Of course, there is the “collective unconscious,” as C.G. Jung called it, among the Germans as well. The works you mentioned are unthinkable without German Romanticism, because this movement paved the way for the systematic exploration of German folklore. The Brothers Grimm were scholars who made it their task to collect, research, and preserve the fairy tales and legends from German folk traditions. This, in turn, led to great interest in pre-Christian, Germanic mythology, and the Neo-Paganism / Neo-Germanism of the 19th century would never have emerged without this groundwork. The dark side of the Germanic / German soul is not so different from that of all related communities of race and culture. For us too, much revolves around the abysses that a person wanders along throughout their life, often coming so close that they fall into them. Doctor Faust is such a genuinely German character, “who always desires the good but creates evil.” He allies with the devil, even selling his soul in exchange for access to knowledge and understanding. In Goethe’s work, it is the “naive” and innocent Gretchen whose love for Faust could save him from eternal damnation, but she too is eventually corrupted, led to infanticide, and only finds her way back to God shortly before her death on the gallows. A redemption that Faust is denied because he undervalues the key to it – his love for Gretchen. This is a very German tragedy and, in its ambivalence, also influential for many lyrics I write for Absurd.
Has black metal in the past attempted a certain counter-reality? Fantasy, black metal, radical acts. Through metal to build a new reality, aesthetics, to change the world with magic and very radical acts and politics?
Yes, I am convinced of that. The legitimacy of Black Metal lies in its claim to at least make an alternate reality conceivable. Unlike the thinkers of the “Frankfurt School,” I do not believe that reality can be arbitrarily deconstructed. For everything that is removed from the realm of reality (which is determined by perception), something of equal value must be created and put in its place. Those who want to change reality must destroy it but simultaneously recreate it. And this possibility has often existed in human history; for example, the outcome of every battle has always determined what the world would look like afterward. And it would definitely have been different from what it became if a different warring party had emerged victorious. So it is far from mere mental play to envision an alternate reality. The alternate reality always exists as a “What if?” and Black Metal can provide a glimpse of it. Through art, of course; but also through the inspiration for actions that can have an immediate impact on the prevailing reality and change it. As I said, every reality is determined by perception, and if one manages to influence this perception, then one can also see the world through different eyes. The Burzum lyrics for “Inn i slottet fra droemmen” are, in my opinion, an apt description of this striving for an alternate reality in Black Metal:
Out from the mist
Out from darkness
Out from the big shadows of the mountain
The castle of the dream…
So ends the ride
That lasted a lifetime
For the master goes (in the castle of the dream)
How can one find his own’s place in this world?
By getting to know and love oneself. This naturally happens through interaction with one’s own social environment, typically one’s own family with its history, traditions, values, and principles. Through this path, one also finds their place in the world. However, it is our fate that we can rarely be truly happy in the world as it is. This world is simply too wrong, too inverted, too alien. We sense this, and it leads many to despair. But there are other worlds besides this one. Finding them, creating them, inhabiting them – this is a pursuit we should never give up.
Why is black metal a chthonic, telluric and Dionysian music?
Our pagan ancestors still knew that polarity is not dualism. Only with the triumph of the Abrahamic religions did a schism emerge between the Creator God and His adversary, but these opposites were united in pagan deities. Wotan is a prime example of this; as the Allfather, he rules over Asgard and Midgard, taking warriors and heroes from among humankind to Valhalla after their death, so they can defend the realm of the gods against the world’s enemies as a final reserve. Yet during the “Rauhnächte” at Yule, Wotan also returns to Midgard, leading the Wild Hunt to wreak havoc on Earth during the longest nights. Wotan is benevolent and wise, yet also cunning and deceitful. It is impossible to reduce him to just one aspect of his personality and appearance. Pagan gods were not one-dimensional. They created humans, and if humans, as the image of the gods, are contradictory and complex beings, then the gods must be the same. Since pagans believe in the Great Cycle, “as above so below,” and understand birth and death not as beginnings and ends but as transitions, it is entirely natural for telluric powers to have their rightful place in this mythology. However, during Christianization, these powers were literally demonized and unsuccessfully exorcised, driving them into the collective unconscious but not eradicating them. Black Metal brings these powers back to the forefront and manifests them in word, image, and sound. Suppressing them leads to neuroses and phobias, while rehabilitating them brings healing. They are needed for transformation, to initiate change. Wotan knew that Ragnarok would not be the end. The world will perish and be reborn, but he cannot initiate this process independently. For this, he needs the world’s enemies, who in turn are unleashed by Loki, at Wotan’s behest. In a certain sense, these motifs can also be found in biblical apocalypticism, but with the Kingdom of God, an eternal state of “blessed” stagnation is promised: Death is conquered, the lamb lies beside the lion, and humanity is back in Paradise. This notion is foreign to paganism, as it does not correspond to the natural order, which is inherently cyclical.
How was your move to the US? Do you have any personal memories of William Luther Pierce?
At the end of 1999, it became clear that I was to be sent back to prison. I was not in agreement with this and therefore looked for opportunities to flee abroad and wait for these political offenses to eventually become statute-barred. I finally chose the USA: for one, I speak English, and for another, there is freedom of speech there. I emigrated to the USA in December 1999 and first stayed on the West Coast, then on the East Coast, and finally in the Appalachians. The National Alliance had its headquarters there, and I was already acquainted with Dr. Pierce after he acquired Resistance Records and wanted to enter the music business with RAC and NSBM. He also relaunched the Resistance Magazine, for which I wrote several articles at the time. Although he personally had no interest in these subcultures and their music, Dr. Pierce understood that this was a way to reach young people and win them over to his political cause. Dr. Pierce was a very European gentleman and thus completely different from the Americans I otherwise met, but even in Europe, he would have been an exceptional figure. He was definitely more of an academic than an activist, but nevertheless, the National Alliance was entirely tailored to him, and with his unexpected death, this organization also immediately fell apart. During my time with the National Alliance, I had many conversations with Dr. Pierce, and he proudly showed me his private library. It contained many German books from the interwar period that he had purchased from the Library of Congress, and he asked for my help in translating and republishing some of them in English. It is very unfortunate that this did not happen, and his death was truly a loss for the entire movement, which he had inspired for so long with his essays, speeches, and books.
You’re quite a well-known figure in black metal. What are the biggest myths about you?
In the age of the internet and the social networks used there, it is inevitable that one will be talked about if one has achieved a certain degree of fame or notoriety in one way or another. My person polarizes, in Black Metal and beyond, and for some, I am the “Nazi” and for others a “Jew”. None of this affects me, should I even become aware of it, but it is remarkable how easily one can live rent-free in other people’s minds. What is annoying, however, and this is out of my very personal sense of honor, is the sometimes expressed insinuation that I am on the payroll of German intelligence agencies. Because the only German intelligence service I might have wanted to work for ceased its activities almost 80 years ago. And for the fact that I am supposed to be an informal employee of a German authority, the German state and its prosecutors are really far too interested in trying to put me back behind bars. I am probably the only German in this Black Metal scene who, on the one hand, has already served prison sentences for offenses related to “NSBM” and who is still being brought to court and convicted again on flimsy charges. You shall recognize them by their deeds, and also by their court records!
What is your relationship and how do you feel about the German band Der Tod und die Landsknechte?
Der Tod und die Landsknechte is the band of my older brother Wolf, and I am very happy and glad that he has managed to express himself artistically with this project the way he always wanted. He can be especially proud of the album “Wir fürchten weder Tod noch Teufel”, and rightly so!
Is there an extreme spiritual path for extreme living in modernity?
How is a “revolt against the modern world” conceivable and feasible in the present? Much of it takes place purely virtually, on social networks of the internet, and does not go beyond posting photos and memes. The excessive use and dependency on a medium that, like no other, stands for the current epoch in postmodernity is in combination with an alleged reactionary and anti-modern attitude the ultimate oxymoron. Personally, I have no problem with not being able to live in the 18th century or even earlier, that is, in the pre-industrial age. Anyone who seriously thinks they want to do without technological achievements in energy generation, mobility, communication, medicine etc., can certainly go into the wilderness as a hermit. However, I am sure that for 99% of all people who at least pretend that this is a desirable way of life, an early and probably painful death by starvation will be the immediate consequence. There is a reason why people have long since ceased to be hunter-gatherers, and it has to do with the struggle for survival in evolution. A person who has grown up in postmodernity can no longer survive in the free and wild nature.
With all this, it should not be said that postmodernity is flawless. On the contrary, there are many reasons why the “Weltschmerz” (world-weariness) in this age does not cease. Materially, we may be better off than any generation before us, but morally we are corrupt and spiritually already dead. However, one must understand that there is practically no way to fight this age and violently abolish it because it is – as Kali Yuga – an unavoidable part of the cosmic cycle. Only at the end of this age does the divine transmutation from iron to gold occur, with the dawning of the new Golden Age.
Of course, I am aware – and readily admit to behaving accordingly – that the instinctive reaction to the repulsive conditions in postmodernity is to want to somehow correct these conditions – by voting for right-wing and conservative parties, for example. But the sad truth that we understandably suppress is more likely that we should follow Nietzsche’s view and “push what is falling.” As I said, I fully understand anyone who thinks there must be another way out of this spiritually dark age. I look with much sympathy at all the luminous figures who opposed the agents of Kali Yuga and were defeated and executed by them, but I myself only have the modest hope of being able to make my existence in this age as bearable as possible because I do not believe that I will experience the Golden Age in my lifetime.
How does prison change a person?
That depends, because every person reacts differently to imprisonment. Most prisoners – and I am no exception – quickly adapt to the conditions of confinement. However, I have always made sure to question and challenge the decisions of the institution’s administration. As a result, I was seen as a troublemaker and malcontent in their eyes, but this spirit of contradiction comes from the Silesian part of my family. Deprivation of liberty is an evil, but even worse, I found the fact that I was condemned to inactivity. It was impossible for me to engage and develop as my personality dictates. The conditions of imprisonment in the USA were much harsher than in Germany, and there I spent almost a year in solitary confinement – without daylight or fresh air. Without robust resilience, one can quickly come to the brink of madness, and such conditions of confinement are recognized as torture for a reason. All in all, prison did not really change me; it certainly contributed to the person I have become, but the predisposition for it was already ingrained in me.
How can one best realize a revolt against modern degeneration?
I have already commented on this, but in addition, I can say that it is essential to maintain a critical distance from the ruling circles and their incessant agitprop through the media, “political education,” social engineering, etc. In the GDR, we learned many things in school that, from one day to the next, no longer corresponded to the truth. This made me realize that the “official truth” is always a lie. Imagine being taught as children and adolescents that Germany in the past was occupied by “bloodthirsty fascists” who could only be driven out by the “heroic” Red Army. For a long time, I didn’t even know who these “fascists” were. They were about as real as the monster under the bed or the alien from outer space. But then I understood that they meant my own grandparents! And that was impossible for me to comprehend, because I loved my grandparents and knew they were good people. Such an insight led to the first dissonance between my own perception and state propaganda, and when it suddenly became clear after 1990 that this propaganda was just a lie, I stopped believing or trusting the state at all. Any state that exists today! Only if you make this a principle will you be able to break out of the state-mandated matrix and resist the degeneration that is willed and created by the ruling circles. This “revolt against the modern world” is primarily a defensive struggle, because every day one is occupied with avoiding the harmful and destructive influences of the Kali Yuga. To protect oneself and those you love and care about, one will need to put on armor made of common sense, traditional values, and spiritual resilience. In the Kali Yuga, we are like astronauts in space: Alone in an extremely hostile environment that can kill us at any time if we face it without protection.
What is the most extreme experience you have had in your life?
In my 48 years, I have had quite a few extreme experiences and have found myself in dangerous situations (for example, in 2019 I was attacked by two dozen Antifa thugs who also would have wanted to take my life if they got the chance), but even though I didn’t choose many of these situations, I would still not give them too much attention. It is much more important to me that I am and remain capable of at least partially realizing my vision of an alternate reality in artistic form, and in my role as a band frontman, music producer, and record label owner, I am able to do so. One day, I don’t want to be remembered for what happened to me, but for what other people have experienced and learned thanks to my creative work.
Can one search for the numinous essence in the modern world?
In today’s world, hardly. Even the once sacred sites have now been profaned and at best only allow us to sense the numinous. But there are other worlds than this one, as mentioned. We can create an alternate reality for ourselves, at least in a private setting, perhaps even with an idealized past and a utopian future: Anything would be better than living in a dead, dark, cold world. The Greater German Reich was the last grand design of such an alternate reality, as a synthesis of the past and the future (in the form of a reactionary modernity), in which millions of people could partake. It was a world where the solstice was celebrated as once by the pagan ancestors, while ballistic missiles from the forges of the future ascended to the heavens above. A world that was thoroughly destroyed and obliterated. And with it, any hope of living in such a world before the advent of the Golden Age was completely dashed. But that does not mean that this world is impossible! We know that it existed and still exists – now, however, only as a memory, an inkling, a promise. As an alternate reality that we may glimpse for only a brief moment – for the duration of a song, for example – but each of these moments is precious and provides solace in a world we did not choose. We must focus on these moments, on these “tears in rain,” as the replicant Roy Batty so emotionally and poignantly described them in “Blade Runner,” and in them, the numinous continues to live and can be preserved until the day when the Golden Age once again illuminates our souls with a radiant divine glow.
Thank you for the interview and good luck with the Counter Currents!
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